Get To Know Maria van Lieshout's Life and Creative Journey - CS Artist Spotlight

Hydi Hoeger: I think that just makes you a better human, too! You're able to make these educated analyses on your life. To be able to say, “Okay, these are all of the things that you know are out there. “What is it that I believe?” “why do I believe it?”, “What am I going to do about it?” Yeah, to be able to do that. We see this in America. We have these implicit biases that are built into us. When we go out and observe and learn about different cultures and different ethnicities and races and ways of people live, it makes us more open-minded and helps us become better people.

Maria van Lieshout: Yes, and you realize as people, we have more in common than we think. Even people who may look very different from us, and maybe they grew up in a different part of the world. Maybe their religion is different, their cultures are different, and their customs are different. When you speak to them at the end of the day, you'll find that you have a lot in common. Everybody loves their families, or maybe they have a family dog that they love or get sad when they see certain things. So we have a lot more in common than we think we do, and that's a really important discovery, too.

Hydi Hoeger: Absolutely agree. So talking about your childhood, going through teen years in high school, creativity as an adult, what are some of the obstacles you faced? A lot of kids will put down their pencils around sixth grade, they'll stop drawing or they'll be encouraged to stop drawing, put away things that are childish, start doing real work and prepare yourself for the real world.

Maria van Lieshout: I think we all faced obstacles. And I think even in the happiest of childhoods, the teenage years can be rough. Or even like the preteen years can be rough and tough. Especially when your family has gone through hardship, and I think every family has a share of hardship. I know my family certainly has had its share of hardship. My parents both are children of a war. So that comes with its baggage. My parents, and especially my dad, have had a hard time. He has gone through some rough patches, which has made my childhood challenging at times. But I'm here to tell you that art can be your friend. Creativity can be your friend and it can be a fantastic outlet especially when you're hitting the teen years. It becomes super tempting to put away the artwork because we're so busy, right? When we're teenagers, schoolwork becomes a lot harder. There are greater demands and maybe your parents, or your coaches, or your teachers are expecting a lot from you. It may seem like you don't have time for art, but even if it's like 10 minutes before you go to bed or like during lunch, if you can find an artistic outlet. I think it will give you a lifelong place to process some of these stuffs. And artistic outlets can be many things, right? It can be drawing, but when I was a teenager, I took theater and I put a lot of my creative drive into it. But it can be singing, it can be dancing, it can be performing, it can be painting. Creativity can take so many different forms. It can be gardening, right? It can really be anything that suits that creative drive that we all have. And so I think, especially if you get a little bit older, and it becomes tempting to put away the pencils, try to give it a place in your life. But if you don't have time for that, that's okay, too. Because even if you abandon it for a little while, and even if you don't have time for a little while, that doesn't mean you're not an artist. You can still be an artist, and you can come back to it any time that you wish, even if it hasn't been part of your life for a while, you can come back to it, and it will welcome you with both arms.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah, I think that's important for adults to think of, too. As a child, I loved art. I craved it, and I took art lessons. Then I got into high school, I got serious with other things – science and writing- the more academic things that we think of and so I stopped thinking of myself as an artist or creative. I think adults, the same as kids, need to pick that up and learn how to let it be a channel for our emotions, or our frustrations, or our wishes, and our hopes.

Maria van Lieshout: I think a lot of adults are hesitant because they think, “Oh, I cannot draw”, which first of all, that's not true. Anybody can draw, you just need to do it. If you don't do it, then that's one thing. But if you try it, then you'll find that you can draw. It's like a muscle that you exercise. If you start running again, after you haven't been running for a while, or play tennis after a while, you're maybe a little bit rusty. And it might take a few sessions, you know, to get loosened up again to remember, “Oh, wait. This is how it's done.” That's exactly how it is with drawing. It might take a while to shake all the rest out of your wrist and get loose with your drawings. But you'll feel fine because I honestly believe that every human being is an artist at heart. We may have different outlets and we may have different ways to express it, but with every single human, there's an artist hidden somewhere in there. That includes every adult who has not picked up a pencil in 20 years, there is an artist in there somewhere.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah, I agree. I think there's this inherent thing built into humans, even children. We want to create, we want to bring to life something that we envision or, bring something beautiful into the world. Whether it's a child, whether it's art, whether it's flowers, or music. I think that's just such a part of any human.

Arts and Adulthood

Maria van Lieshout: Yeah. And a really great tip that I tell adults all the time is, if you feel like something is missing from your life, go back to what you love doing as a kid, because that's probably the thing that will make you feel better today. Even if you're my age, or even if you're older. The things that you love doing when you are three or seven or nine or 12 are probably the things that you love doing when you're a grown up. And that you've forgotten a little bit, or you might be a little bit rusty. But it will still hold the key to happiness for you.

Hydi Hoeger: I love that advice! I think that is so wise. We're so unrestrained when we're little, in our imaginations and our possibilities.

Maria van Lieshout: Yeah. Because as adults, we're taught to think of all the reasons why something isn't possible, right? Where something shouldn't be done. But kids don't think like that. Kids are just like, “Of course, I can climb that tree.”, “Of course I can jump over it, you know, that moat”. They don't think of all the reasons, all the things, that could possibly go wrong. And that's a really good thing to have. Even as an adult. It's really good to kind of abandon all the risks and all the fears and be like, “You know what, I'm just gonna go for this, and yes, a million things can go wrong. So what?” Our lives don't need to be perfect. They can be messy, and we can fall down, and we can get like mud in our hair. And we can mess up, and that's okay. And then we just crumble up the piece of paper and we start over again.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah, at our age, we should know that it all gets better eventually. We can pick ourselves up and we can move on and try again.

Maria van Lieshout: And in fact, makes us better people to have to pick ourselves up and to realize it's not the end of the world. You can fall down and still be okay. It's okay. It's all gonna be okay. But not doing something in the first place is way more risky than doing something and failing at it.

Hydi Hoeger: I love that advice. I usually ask what advice you would give to parents and kids. But I think that that's our takeaway from you.

Maria van Lieshout: I'm such a big fan of that. I'm such a big fan. I think especially being an immigrant is all about taking chances, right? You don't know if you're going to be happier in the new country than you're an old country, but you're willing to risk it. And so you just do it, and you take that chance, and you get on that plane or that boat and you start a new life. And yes, it's hard. And yes, it's messy. And yes, not everything is perfect. But you know what, if nothing else, it gives you new experiences, new ideas, and lots of great stories to tell. Yes, every failure is like a great story to tell. Like I've told myself that like throughout my life, so many times when things have gone wrong. I'm like, “Oh, man, I feel miserable now, but one day, this is gonna be a really great story to tell.”

Hydi Hoeger: Some people are going through something hard and they say, “Well, someday we're gonna laugh about this.” But authors, a lot of times they'll say, “I'm going to write a story about this someday.”

Maria van Lieshout: Yeah, people falling on their knees or falling on their face, or getting wet, is a much more interesting story, than stories of perfection. Because most of the time, those stories of perfection are fiction. When we look at athletes, for instance, and we, we look at somebody like Simone Biles, and we're like, “Oh, look at all that grace, and all that beauty. And she's perfect. And she makes it look effortless.” Well, guess what? She has worked her butt off her entire life. And she's probably fallen a million times in order to get to where she is. And so falling down is just part of it. Like to pretend that is not part of becoming, becoming better and improving is not honest. And I think in today's world, especially kids, because they're growing up in this Instagram world where it looks like all these people, that they look perfect, and they're so good at their skill, and they just were born that way. Guess what? No. Even the people that look perfect on social media, on Instagram, they were not born that way. They have to work really, really hard every single day to make it look easy, to make it look effortless, to make it look perfect. But guess what? It isn't like that. If you could just take a peek behind the scenes and you could see what really goes into all that, you would know that a lot of hard work goes into it. Yeah, a lot of like falling down and messing up and making mistakes and starting over.

Hydi Hoeger: Our kids don't when they see things like that. And they see this idea of perfection and success. You know, we don't teach them resiliency when they see just those results. You know, when they're only seeing the product of something, they don't see the resiliency that had to go into that and the motivation and the ability to get up and try again.

Maria van Lieshout: Absolutely! My son, he has been following these, these YouTube personalities with all these followers. One day, he decided he wanted to have a YouTube channel. And he made a recording, and it was very funny. Like he does the impressions, and it was very funny. He uploaded it to YouTube. The next day, he went to look at how many followers he had. And he was surprised that he didn't have a million followers.[laughing] Okay, how do we tell him that doesn't just magically happen overnight. That is something that one has to work at, and maybe it's better if you don’t have followers to be part of the process. Yeah, I think a lot of kids today believe that it does happen all by itself and then when it doesn't happen for them, they think something is wrong with them. And that is not true. Because 99.9% of the humans on this earth are imperfect, and we don't know what we're doing. And we're just winging it every day. And, you know, we mess up all the time. And we say things that we regret. And we feel silly when we say things, or we feel unheard sometimes. All these things that kids feel, we all feel them every day, and we have felt them every day of our lives. And guess what? That is part of being human. That is part of being a human being, and that's life. And that's okay.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah. You know, one of the kids in Arree’s writing class right now, [I don't know why this stayed with me.] So it's been such a focal point in my mind lately. She said, “Does the story have to have a problem?” It's a relevant question, and not all books have problems. But every good story has a problem. You know, that is what makes it interesting, just like you were saying, there is this idea of what can happen, then things go wrong, and then things get worse, and then things resolve themselves, and how that process of resolving itself happens. I think that, and I think as an author, is a very, very valuable tool that we have in our pocket-that we know that there's this messy middle but then it will resolve itself if we keep working on this storyline.

Maria van Lieshout: Yeah. And guess what, every story has a problem, but there are big problems and there are small problems, right? There's really, really big, big, big problems, especially right now in our world, but there are also small problems that really affect our lives. If your resumed classes are about to start, and you realize I forgot to eat breakfast, I haven't had my breakfast. That's a problem that you need to overcome. It's a small problem. But it's a problem. And so, anything can be looked at as a problem that needs a solution. And, and it's okay to write about small problems. And small problems. Yeah. Also need resolutions just like these problems do.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah. And I kind of want to use this as a segue to what you're working on. Now. I am so excited about what you're working on now. Because this was a part of your history. Well, your family's history and yours. I mean, it all trickles down. But these are enormous problems that we, you know, that I will let you explain in a second, that we, in America, we don't know about, you know, we don't understand because we have never been put in the situation that your family was put in an afternoon.

Maria van Lieshout: You know, and here's the good thing, because you just asked me you said, you know, what are some of the obstacles and some of the things that were obstacles when I was younger, because, you know, my, my parents are both products of of the war, there were children, they both grew up during the war, and have experienced a lot of trauma really early in their childhood because of it. And that has affected my childhood. And that has, that has provided some hurdles for me when I was young. Now that I'm older, I have their stories, right. And remember how I said earlier that every bad thing sometimes becomes a story later on. And this can be small things, but it can also be big things. Well, this happened to be a really big thing that happened, which was when I grew up and my parents grew up in Amsterdam, during the Second World War. And they experienced a number of things that my grandfather wrote about. And when my grandmother passed away, 10 years ago, I I came across these documents that my grandfather had written, and they were unbelievable stories. And I was completely inspired by them and completely compelled to tell the story. So I started researching the story. So I spent lots of time I went back to Amsterdam, I went to the city archives, and I spent, you know, time talking to people and, and, and I learned so much. And what I'm working on now is to, to write a fictional story inspired by what they actually experienced. And it will be a young adult novel, it will be an illustrated novel, because illustration is how I tell stories. So illustration is a very important component of it. And I'm, and I'm I so it's an example of where I took something that was hard in their childhood. That was a really negative thing that, in fact, my grandparents didn't like to talk about, because it made them really sad because they lost a lot. And they lost a lot of loved ones. But I took this really hard thing that used to be an obstacle in my family's life. And now I'm turning it into something else, I'm turning it into a book, which is something that I'm experiencing as something really positive. And then I'm really excited about and guess what, my parents are pretty excited about me reading it, too. So so you know, you, you, this is a perfect example of taking something that's a hard thing in your life, and turning it into something that is positive. And, and, yeah, I'm working really hard at it. It's not nearly done. I still have, you know, quite a ways to go. But I'm, I'm feeling really great about how it's shaping up.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah, and, you know, we talked about overcoming obstacles in our life, but sometimes it takes generations, you know, of working together to fix this problem. My grandpa was the same, you know, he served in the South Pacific campaign, and he did not until the end of his life, he did not like to talk about what he had seen, what he experienced, you know, it was very painful. Just, I think, a lot of grief, a lot of suffering, you know, that they go through. And that's sometimes you know, that that's the reality for some people, there are refugees in the world, you know, there are people who are still at war and suffering. And, you know, you may be able to tell their story, or, you know, if that's your family history, you know, maybe you're the one that's going to get to tell that story.

Maria van Lieshout: Yeah, I'm constantly. And I'm so grateful to my grandfather for writing it down, because I know how hard it was for him. And that's why my grandparents would never talk about it when they were alive, because they always said, No, no, no, let's just let's not dwell on that. There was so much pain there, that I'm so grateful that he actually did take the time to really write it down. And he liked those long manuscripts that he wrote. And he went into some amazing detail. And I'm so grateful to him for doing that. Because now the story isn't lost. Because I know a lot of people who are working through grief, their stories are lost, because they pass away. And maybe they haven't told exactly what happens. Because it was too painful, too. And then as they pass away, as we lose those people, we lose their stories. And I'm so grateful that my grandpa father made sure that those stories weren't lost, that we had them forever. Yeah, it was a real gift that he gave, he gave me and he gave us. And I I feel an enormous sense of gratitude and also of responsibility to, you know, to tell the story and to do it in a way that it deserves to be told.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah, yeah. And it's, it becomes part of your legacy, I think. Yeah. And, you know, we talk about journaling, I know you did, you know, our feelings journal, I have it in my closet, it's, you know, acknowledging, you know, what makes us feel certain things. And, you know, I think it's really important kids today are going through something that they haven't gone through since 1918. So very few people are alive to even remember anything like this. And it definitely wasn't like this, you know, they never went to zoom to class on zoom. You know, they never had to sit in their house and stare at a box all day. So even if they just write a record of what that was like, and then put it away, and move on with their life, you know, maybe someday someone's gonna look at that record. And they're gonna be a Maria, and they're going to want to tell that story.

Maria van Lieshout: Absolutely. Absolutely. That is such an amazing piece of advice. Yes. If you can write down what you're feeling, what you're thinking, what it's like to live through this, or make drawings. And yes, absolutely. When I was eight years old, I had this dream about coming to America. I don't know why, but I've had a fascination with America ever since I was really, really young. And I'd never set foot in America. I didn't have any family members who were in the States, but I'd seen it on TV and I had this amazing fascination. So I made this book about the United States and I drew things that I'd seen on TV and I went to my local travel agent and I got brochures and I would cut things out and paste them in and it was this amazing, like a scrapbook that I made. And I know, and it became true, it actually ended up in America, but it was something that I foresaw back then. Then it was something I worked on. And so anything you can make now? You know, just do it and don't throw it away. Hold on to it.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah, happy parents keep it somewhere safe. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Because it's a part of you. It's part of your history. And, and, you know, I think even like you, you were saying that some people have passed on from those experiences during the war and didn't record something as sometimes people are like, Well, you know, this, this pandemic that we're going through, somebody else will write the history, they'll have a general idea of what happened. But every single person has a different perspective has a different experience, you know, a lot of things we share, but everyone has a different experience. And it creates this better picture for the future of what it looked like for everyone, you know. So it's not just one person telling the story. It's not one narrative.

Maria van Lieshout: Everyone has a different story to tell. And your perspective is slightly different from another person's perspective. And, and, yeah, anything that you can write down or journal, gosh, I wish my mom has kept a journal for like, 50 years of her life. And she recently summarized it, because it's books and books and books and books. And she turned it into a manuscript just for us to read it. And it was so incredibly valuable to read all these things that she had written down. It was another gift like her. It was her father who, you know, wrote down all these things about the war and, and she does run into family or something she has, has kept this like, lifelong journal, but, and she wrote about things from when I was young that I had forgotten that I didn't remember and then I read about it was like, Oh, my God, I can't believe that. Yes, I remember that. It's so valuable to have that. And I wish now that I had kept a journal my entire life, but I have not.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah, well, why not start now? Right. I preach that we keep a journal. But I mean, I'm very spotty with mine. Yeah.

Maria van Lieshout: It's, it's a commitment. Yes. Like, like any artistic endeavor and an artistic career. It is a commitment. It takes time. It takes energy, it takes focus. But it's very, it's very much worth it.

Hydro Hoeger: Yeah, and like you said, you know, the risk of not doing something far outweighs the risk of doing it. So yeah. I am so excited about your book that you're working on your passion project, I think it's, I think it's gonna be so amazing. And I cannot wait to read it.

Maria van Lieshout: Thank you. Yes, it's, um, you know, that's another thing. And, you know, because it's a little bit different. It's not a graphic novel. It's historical fiction, but it's yet it's illustrated, which there are, there's some of that out there, but not so much. But the reason I feel strongly about doing it this way is because I'm basically just writing the book that I want to read. And that's really good advice. If you like, if you make the stuff that you want to read that you want to see that you want to watch, chances are if you love reading it, there's there, there might be somebody else out there who will enjoy reading it too. So don't ever make art because somebody else believes that you're supposed to do it this way, or because you believe that that's how it's done. You know, art, when it comes from your heart, just just create the art that you would enjoy looking at. And yeah, and I think that that's ultimately the most authentic and the best art, because it's true as to who we really are.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah, and that process should bring you joy. 

Maria van Lieshout: Nice, somebody else, don't make art because you think that somebody is going to want to, you know, just make art because it makes you happy. Do what you want to do. Like put on paper, what excites you, not what somebody else does, or you believe somebody else wants you to do doesn't matter. When you have a job, you can do what somebody else wants you to do, you can do what your boss wants you to do. But for your art, that's yours. Just do what you want to do. What do you use the colors that you think are exciting? Use the shapes that make you happy. Use the media that you think work for you, um, just art is something really private that's there for you to enjoy. None of anybody's business, but yours.

Hydi Hoeger: I do have one question for you, Maria that I, it doesn't really tie in. I was just thinking about it while I was running my kids around. You grew up? I think there's a whole museum devoted to Van Gogh. Yes, yes. So art is like this. I mean, you cannot escape it when you're in Amsterdam, right?

Maria van Lieshout: I mean, it's, and it's so part of the way of life there too. I was back. You know, November, before the pandemic hit, I was back home for my dad's birthday. So it was back for a week. And that week, I went to one play and three museums. And that wasn't easy, because that's what everyone does. Like, I would want to meet a friend for lunch. She was okay. And let's go to the exhibition at the museum. And then we'll have some coffee and a sandwich there at the museum shop. And somebody else was like, Oh, I'd love to see you. But you don't have tickets for a play. Do you want to come and it's such a way of life there. And that is the thing I really miss. I mean, here, it's definitely, you know, there I live in San Francisco near San Francisco. So there's plenty of culture here. When there's no pandemic of course. But it's, it's more exclusive. It's a lot more expensive. It's not as accessible. So, so yeah, that's something I miss. And that Van Gogh Museum is amazing. It's it's favorite.

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah, his whole story just speaks to me, you know, it's just such an emotional power, like the suffering and the creating that he did. It's just amazing to be. But all of Holland, you know, I know, I told you earlier, my grandpa lived there for a while. And, you know, the whole country seems to resonate with this creativity, creativity, you know, where it's like, from the flowers to the windmills to the canals to the building colors to architecture.

Maria van Lieshout: Eeven like, kids books are so amazingly creative. They're like, I love whenever I go there, I bring back a whole stack of kids books, because they're, yeah, they're different. Um, then then here, they're, they're much more artistic. Really?

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah. Well, no, I have to know and to go down this rabbit hole of searching for books.

Maria van Lieshout: There. There are some amazing kids' books that I know, I mean, it's a different market here. But I think some of the kids books that are getting published there probably wouldn't get published here. Because they're more risky. You know, they're, they're more, they're more, they don't always have happy endings. Or they are very abstract. And I think that sharp, very comfortable sharing books and art with their kids. That is very abstract. 

Hydi Hoeger: Yeah. And I think that that goes back to what you were saying about cultural differences. You know, you know, we know that in Russia, art and music are very different from Amsterdam, which is different from, you know, Korea and Japan. And, you know, even countries that are neighboring countries have very different cultural differences and marketplace, like you said, and yeah, it's very interesting. All right. Well, that was amazing.

Maria van Lieshout: It's a real treat to get to chat with you for a little while and talk about all the stuff that makes me happy. So I'm so yes, that was a joy. Thank you.

Hydi Hoeger: Yes. No, I love our visits. And I look forward to our next one. Yes, it will be when you finish your book. Actually, it will be before that.

Maria van Lieshout: I hope. I will definitely speak to you before then. Okay. Yeah. Someday, one day.

Hydi Hoeger: Oh, all right. Well, thank you. All right. Take care. Have a great day. Talk to you soon!

Watch more of Maria and Hydi's lovely talk here: